Missouri, the Death Penalty and the Shame it Brings on the State

It seems Missouri hit the New York Times today. Unfortunately, as is so frequently and repeatedly happens lately for Missouri and Kansas, lots of "red", Republican, Right Wing states and even the nation, it's not for anything good. Quite the contrary, in fact.

Just now, Missouri is scheduling the death penalty for this March 17 for a citizen who is 74 years old, who had horrible brain damage and loss, years ago and who now has an IQ of 71, it's reported:

Lawyers Seek Reprieve for Killer Who Lost Part of His Brain Decades Earlier

If ever there were a case of "extenuating circumstances", surely it seems this would be the one. Some of the facts:

In January 1972, Cecil Clayton was cutting wood at his family’s sawmill in southeastern Missouri when a piece of lumber flew off the circular saw blade and struck him in the forehead. The impact caved in part of Mr. Clayton’s skull, driving bone fragments into his brain.

Doctors saved his life, but in doing so had to remove 20 percent of his frontal lobe, which psychiatrists say led Mr. Clayton to be tormented for years by violent impulses, schizophrenia and extreme paranoia. In 1996, his lawyers say, those impulses drove Mr. Clayton to kill a law enforcement officer.

Lawyers for Mr. Clayton, who has an I.Q. of 71, say he should be spared because his injury has made it impossible for him to grasp the significance of his death sentence, scheduled for March 17.

“There was a profound change in him that he doesn’t understand, and neither did his family,” said Elizabeth Unger Carlyle, one of Mr. Clayton’s lawyers.

But wait, it gets worse:

Mr. Clayton is missing about 7.7 percent of his brain.

“If you can prove mental retardation, you can get exempted, but mental illness alone is not an exemption to the death penalty,” said Richard Dieter, executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center.

What anyone evaluating this situation needs to understand is what the frontal lobe is responsible for in we humans: "...the part of the brain involved in impulse control, problem solving and social behavior..."

With all this information, it might seem as though the courts and state might take all this into consideration and waive the death penalty for Mr. Clayton.

But you'd be mistaken.

The conviction and death sentence have been upheld by the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit. His lawyers are now seeking a competency hearing for Mr. Clayton to determine whether he understands his circumstances.

And this is where we stand now with this case:

In a court filing last month, Missouri’s attorney general, Chris Koster, wrote that Dr. Reynolds had “found Clayton’s comments concerning the emotional stress that the threat of execution is causing him are evidence that on a visceral as well as cognitive level, Clayton understands his potential fate.”

And if that's not enough, there's still more,

In Mr. Clayton’s case, two years after the sawmill accident, he checked himself into a mental hospital for 15 months because he feared he could no longer control his temper. After his release, Mr. Clayton decided that he could no longer perform the work required at the sawmill, and instead took a job as a police officer in Purdy, Mo. He quit after nine months.

“He was so unsure of himself and worried about his judgment to the point that he felt he should not be in a position of responsibility,” according to a 2001 filing by his lawyers to the Missouri State Supreme Court.

In 1983, Dr. Douglas Stevens, a psychiatrist, wrote an evaluation about Mr. Clayton that proved prophetic.

“There is presently no way that this man could be expected to function in the world of work,” Dr. Stevens wrote. “Were he pushed to do so he would become a danger both to himself and to others. He has had both suicidal and homicidal impulses, so far controlled, though under pressure they would be expected to exacerbate.”

Surely we Missourians are better, smarter and more empathetic to another soul's situation than to allow this execution go forward.  Surely we're better Christians or Jews or Muslims or atheists or whatever. Surely we're better humans than to go through with this.

Surely.

Could we now accept that AT&T technicians shouldn't be out alone at 3 am?

The good news, if this is good news, is that the apparent murderer of 58 year old AT&T employee Kevin Mashburn was arrested.

As you likely know, Mr. Mashburn is the AT&T employee who was out last week at 3 am, doing his job, when someone sneaked up on him, smashed him in the head and left him to die.

So sad. So tragic. So unnecessary.

It seems the accused--one Bryan Middlemas--phoned a former cellmate to tell him what he did that night and that person turned him in for the reward.

What seems true and that needs to be said is that AT&T and all companies should have policies wherein no one--no one--should be out in the city, working, in the middle of the night like this, alone. This happened in Gladstone. If it happened there, I think we can safely say it could easily happen in any part of the metropolitan area.

It reminds me so much of what our Dad told us as teenagers. That is, that "No one but murderers, rapists and thieves are out in the middle of the night."

A bit of an exaggeration but not by much.

Links: http://www.kshb.com/dpp/news/crime/bryan-middlemas-charged-in-the-murder-of-att-worker

No one can stop the KC killing without help from the people

Why nothing will ever change in Kansas City regarding the shootings and killings unless the people change: Man shot twice outside an apartment, but refuses to tell police about the shooter KANSAS CITY, Mo. - A man is recovering from gunshot wounds suffered late Wednesday night outside a Kansas City apartment building. Police said the bullets hit the man in a shoulder and arm, but are not life-threatening. The victim refused to cooperate with police and does not want to prosecute his attacker. No one can say anything about what the mayor, City Hall, police or anyone else is doing if the people who are being shot or shot at don't assist the police, after the fact. After this, I refuse to write anything further on this subject, the shootings and murders in Kansas City. Like so many people here in town, if the people involved can't or won't help themselves with these problems, there is no way anyone outside the situations can. Sure, everyone knows it, as I had up to now but I had held out until now. Now, like so many others, I'm done with it. Link: http://www.kshb.com/dpp/news/crime/man-shot-twice-outside-an-apartment-but-refuses-to-tell-police-about-the-shooter

The very racist United States of America

Please press for justice for Trayvon Martin. Call for prosecution, in a court of law, of his assailant, George Zimmerman.

Please go to this link to sign a petition calling for a trial of the alleged killer of Trayvon Martin

Thank you in advance: http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-our-son-17-year-old-trayvon-martin

Definitive Leonard Pitts quote on the Trayvon Martin murder

A "PRICK THE SKIN" REMINDER ~ "...I haven't written yet about the killing of Trayvon Martin. The reason is that I can't seem to begin to think about it without crying. The senseless shooting of that beautiful young boy is overwhelming. But it goes beyond that. Remember the quote I used last night? 'I did my best to teach the master about slaves. Told him a hundred times when he was a boy that it wasn't a black skin that made a man a slave. It's the other skin, the one that grows on the outside, that second hide made of fear and obedience. What a good master does is every once in a while, prick that skin to remind folks that it's still there and always will be. I told him that if a slave was to molt that outside skin, you no longer have a slave. 'Mark my words,' I said, 'when a man's not afraid, then he's hoping. And that's when all hell breaks loose.' The killing of that young boy is the 'prick the skin' reminder to every African American boy - as well as his father/mother/brother/sister/aunt/uncle/grandmother/grandfather etc. - that the fear is very real. Whether that's what Zimmerman intended or not is beside the point...its the reality that has been reinforced once again. What does it mean to raise an African American child in this country today? It means that once you get over the miriad of ways that the education, health and justice system are filled with inequities, you have to fear the idea of him getting shot while walking home from a trip to the convenience store. There's only so much a parent can do to try to protect their child. So as a white person I try to imagine what its like to be a mother under those circumstances. And that's when I know what a long road we have yet to travel when it comes to racism in this country. The particular bar I set is that we'll know we got there when a mother of an African American boy can sleep soundly at night and leave the fear for her child behind. Until then, I'll brook no talk about a 'post-racial America.'" ..." Link: http://immasmartypants.blogspot.com/2012/03/prick-skin-reminder.html

"Love?"

I don't think I'll ever get over or forget that a pastor--a religious minister--named "Love" killed his "girlfriend's" husband, for starters, then DID THE OFFICIATING AT THE MAN'S FUNERAL. I mean, come on. Dickens didn't write stuff any better than that. That is some kind of sick and twisted. Links: http://www.pitch.com/plog/archives/2011/11/09/ex-pastor-david-love-pleads-guilty-to-killing-parishioner; http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/09/3256188/ex-pastor-david-love-admits-killing.html

On the outrageous factors of the Bledsoe robbery/murder

There are so many things wrong with the robbery/murder (slaughter?) of a few days ago when David Bledsoe was gunned down in his own family's business.

The first, biggest and worst is that it happened at all, of course.

But there are so many more.

This just shouldn't have happened, no way.

Your family owns a business in town for decades and runs it decently, you should be left alone, no matter who you are.

But to be literally minding your own business--no pun intended, certainly--and closing the store and have someone come in with a gun because he thinks he needs your money that he hasn't earned is obscene.

There will be much written about that.  There already has been.

What strikes me--and more than a few of us-- as odd is that a grandson could and would be able to phone his grandparents to take him to "get some money" and then commit a robbery to do it.

Adding to the bizarre nature of this obscenity is that they--the grandparents--did just that--they drove the thug over to the store to do this.

Now here's the really additionall insane part.

The grandparents drive grandson over to get the money--read:  commit grand larceny with a handgun--and they end up killing a law-abiding, innocent, hard working man.

Then, the grandson and grandfather are charged.

But, insanely and bizarrely enough, the grandmother, who was in the car, isn't charged.

Would someone explain that to me, please?

And then tell me how anyone is going to develop business and businesses for other people to work at on the East side of this city, as Midtown Miscreant asked.

How is it anyone thinks that's going to happen in this atmosphere?

Links:  Fatal holdup at Bledsoe’s Rental investigated
BLEDSOE, DAVID W.
Grandfather, grandson accused in fatal robbery
Grandfather, grandson among three charged in fatal robbery at KC rental store
KC rental business employee killed by robbers 
Bledsoe rental homicide. 2nd degree Murder and Armed Robbery, while on Probation for Robbery.

Congratulations, Kansas! You're one of the "10 Worst States to be a Woman"

From Alternet today, a great article, showing where it's toughest to be a woman in our United States:

10 Worst States To Be a Woman

State Republicans have introduced nearly 1,000 laws restricting women's reproductive health access. Here are 10 of the worst states to be a woman between puberty and menopause.

6. Kansas. Kansas went from being a pretty bad place to be a woman to a hellhole rapidly, between the murder of Dr. George Tiller in 2009 and the recent election of devout misogynist Sam Brownback as governor. The murder emboldened the radical anti-choice movement, as it resulted in the closure of Tiller’s clinic and proved to them that terrorism does work. Because of this, anti-choicers in the area moved to terrorizing Dr. Mila Means, a Kansas family doctor who was discovered receiving training to provide abortion. So far, Dr. Means has been unable to find relief from the harassment campaign at her office and her home, and a federal judge refused to issue a restraining order against Angel Dilliard, an anti-choice fanatic who has been threatening Dr. Means’ life.

Despite the atmosphere of fear and violence, Gov. Brownback is giving the terrorists what they want by signing more abortion restrictions into law, and pushing to strip family planning funding from women who depend on it.

And we have the leaders of the Republican Party to thank for it all.

Don't "shoot the messenger" (no pun intended)

I was just sent this chart from the "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" campaign which, naturally and of course, I'm a big fan and from which I get emails.

Look at those statistics above, folks. Apparently, it is from a their own poll and it seems to show, and clearly, that maybe all the NRA truly has is a bunch of people with money, opinions and the desire to send letters. It seems the American people want strongly to reduce the number of shootings and killings in the country, doesn't it? And it looks as though they'll support programs to make this happen.

Keep in mind, too, that all it's saying is that it is to "stop criminals, drug abusers, the mentally ill and other dangerous people from buying guns", etc. It's not to take away "your" gun, okay, Mr. and/or Ms. law-abiding gun owner? So chill.

Then, again this morning, I saw a link on my blogroll to another survey on the same subject:

"...a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Monday...indicates that (a) majority of the public favors restrictions on semi-automatic guns and high-capacity ammunition clips, as well as background checks and limits on the number of guns that can be purchased."

According to the survey, several restrictions, however, are widely accepted. More than nine in ten Americans favor background checks to determine whether a prospective buyer has been convicted of a felony. Six in ten favor a ban on semi-automatic assault guns, and on the kind of extended ammunition clips which Jared Loughner allegedly used in Arizona. Fifty-five percent questioned say they also favor limiting gun purchases to one per month.

I'm loving this, folks, I gotta' tell you.

Now all we need to do is get organized and the mayors seem to be helping that along, don't they?

Have a great day, y'all.

Links:  http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/home/home.shtml

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/17/cnn-poll-no-change-on-gun-law-opinions-after-arizona-shootings/

My point exactly (on guns)

From "Crooks & Liars" today:

January 12, 2011 12:00 PM

Can we retire the "if everyone has guns, no one will need guns" theory now?

By karoli

Conventional Village wisdom goes like this: In situations where a bad guy has a gun and is shooting everyone in sight, a good guy with a gun will save lives. Not letting good guys carry guns means more people will die at the hands of the bad guy.
In the midst of Saturday's chaotic news reporting, one question on my mind was whether the shooter had been subdued by someone else's gun, and whether any of those hit in the barrage of bullets had been hit by so-called friendly fire. As events unfolded, it seemed as though only one weapon had been fired -- the 9mm Glock in the hands of Jared Lee Loughner.
But Arizona is an open carry state. It's not unusual at all for citizens to be carrying their guns, even to the supermarket. So what happened? Why wasn't there a hero with a gun ready to shoot Loughner down before he trained his Glock on that nine-year old child, or that Federal judge, or the nice little elderly man waiting to chat with her?
It turns out there was. Only this particular hero was smart enough to stop and think for a second or two, which probably saved more lives than were otherwise lost.

But before we embrace Zamudio's brave intervention as proof of the value of being armed, let's hear the whole story. "I came out of that store, I clicked the safety off, and I was ready," he explained on Fox and Friends. "I had my hand on my gun. I had it in my jacket pocket here. And I came around the corner like this." Zamudio demonstrated how his shooting hand was wrapped around the weapon, poised to draw and fire. As he rounded the corner, he saw a man holding a gun. "And that's who I at first thought was the shooter," Zamudio recalled. "I told him to 'Drop it, drop it!' "
But the man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

If you compare Zamudio's story to Bill Badger's account (video at the top) as told to Lawrence O'Donnell last night, a picture emerges. Had Zamudio not been careful, there might have been another fatality, or six. At about the 5:36 mark in the video, Badger says that after Loughner went down, the gun left his hand and someone else picked it up. Badger yelled for him to drop the gun, fearing that the police might shoot him, thinking he was the shooter.
Or a well-intentioned citizen like Zamudio.
This idea that good guys carrying guns will somehow make us safer from bad guys carrying guns is straight out of the NRA talking points, but it doesn't bear any relationship to reality. At a recent school board meeting in Florida, a deranged person yanked out a gun and held everyone hostage for a time. One brave woman tried to knock the gun out of his hand with her purse. She's lucky to be alive today, but that purse was likely as effective a weapon as someone in that room with a gun would have been. Ultimately, the shooter turned the gun on himself. No well-intentioned citizen with a gun ended that standoff.
And then there's the dilemma that Zamudio ultimately faced when confronted with the prospect of using his own gun:

The Arizona Daily Star, based on its interview with Zamudio, adds two details to the story. First, upon seeing the man with the gun, Zamudio "grabbed his arm and shoved him into a wall" before realizing he wasn't the shooter. And second, one reason why Zamudio didn't pull out his own weapon was that "he didn't want to be confused as a second gunman."

Here's the truth: Had Zamudio used his gun, there's every indication the tragedy would have been compounded, not averted. Isn't it time to lay this canard to rest?

_________________________________________________

Exactly my point all this time.  That is, more guns do not make for less shootings or killings.  It defies logic.

Link to original post:  http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/can-we-kill-if-everyone-has-guns-no-one-wil

Quote of the day--on guns today

Today, the amazing thing about the reaction to the Giffords shooting is that virtually all the discussion about how to prevent a recurrence has been focusing on improving the tone of our political discourse. That would certainly be great. But you do not hear much about the fact that Jared Loughner came to Giffords’s sweet gathering with a semiautomatic weapon that he was able to buy legally because the law restricting their sale expired in 2004 and Congress did not have the guts to face up to the National Rifle Association and extend it.


If Loughner had gone to the Safeway carrying a regular pistol, the kind most Americans think of when they think of the right to bear arms, Giffords would probably still have been shot and we would still be having that conversation about whether it was a sane idea to put her Congressional district in the cross hairs of a rifle on the Internet.

But we might not have lost a federal judge, a 76-year-old church volunteer, two elderly women, Giffords’s 30-year-old constituent services director and a 9-year-old girl who had recently been elected to the student council at her school and went to the event because she wanted to see how democracy worked.

Loughner’s gun, a 9-millimeter Glock, is extremely easy to fire over and over, and it can carry a 30-bullet clip. It is “not suited for hunting or personal protection,” said Paul Helmke, the president of the Brady Campaign. “What it’s good for is killing and injuring a lot of people quickly.”

America has a long, terrible history of political assassinations and attempts at political assassination. What we did not have until now is a history of attempted political assassination that took the lives of a large number of innocent bystanders. The difference is not about the Second Amendment. It’s about a technology the founding fathers could never have imagined.

--Gail Collins, The New York Times

Link:  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10collins.html?src=me&ref=general

The death penalty to show killing is wrong?

If you've read or seen anything about this Jared Loughner in Arizona who shot and killed the 6 people and wounded Congresswoman Guiffords, you've learned he's not connected with reality.

Some examples of how out of touch Mr. Loughner is:

Lydian Ali, a classmate at Pima Community College, said, “He would laugh a lot at inappropriate times, and a lot of the comments he made had no relevance to the discussion topic.”

 Mr. Ali, 26, continued: “He presented a poem to the class that he’d written called ‘Meathead’ that was mostly just about him going to the gym to work out. But it included a line about touching himself in the shower while thinking about girls. He was very enthusiastic when he read the poem out loud.”



At the Y.M.C.A. where Mr. Loughner worked out, he would ask the staff strange questions, like how often they disinfected the bathroom doors. Once he asked an employee how he felt “about the government taking over.” Another time, he sat in the men’s room for 30 minutes, leaving front-desk staff members to wonder what he was doing. When he emerged, he asked what year it was.

David Brooks writes, in The New York Times, that it seems clear Mr. Loughner is schizophrenic: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/opinion/11brooks.html?src=me&ref=general.

Check out the 2nd link, below, for more on his state.

His videos on YouTube made no sense at all, just as his writings were completely, totally and utterly incoherent.

So a couple things come to mind.

First, there is no way possible he could remotely get a fair trial in Tuscon, at least, if not in all of Arizona.  No way.  The trial needs to be moved out-state, let's put that up right away.

Second, killing this guy--giving him the death penalty--would be just like his writing in that it would make no sense at all, either.

If the guy weren't patently crazy--and while it hasn't been proven in a court of law yet, I think that seems to be only a matter of time--I'd say sure, there may be a point to executing the guy.  Maybe. 


But he would have had to show he was more in touch with reality, to begin, and then they would have to show that it was part of some diabolical plan he had, for whatever reason.

Yes, the fact that they found that, at his home, he wrote he "planned ahead" goes against him but the fact is, the guy, it has been shown already and in at least a few ways, is just out of his head.  This would be like executing someone with an IQ of 25.

The only thing that can be claimed is that people don't want to pay for this guy to be in prison for the rest of his life.

Okay, no one can take that away from you but the fact is, the humane thing to do is to put this guy away with an unbreakable, unbeatable life sentence.

It's not like that will be pleasant for him.

Links:  http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/jared_lee_loughner/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us/10shooter.html?ref=jaredleeloughner

Scott Roeder's sentence

Thank goodness.

Scott Roeder's sentencing today:here's hoping

Let's hope he gets all the years they can pile on him, for assassinating Dr. George Tiller, in Dr. Tiller's church as he was volunteering on an otherwise quiet and peaceful Sunday morning, completely, totally and utterly premeditatedly.

Thankfully, Roeder just won't shut up

Scott Roeder is back, this time on radio , rambling with his thoughts on his situation. Fortunately for us all, he keeps admitting he cold bloodedly shot and killed Dr. George Tiller in Tiller's church on a Sunday morning, while the Doctor was volunteering for the church. ("Tell me, Mr. Roeder, who would Jesus kill, anyway?").

Since the question about Roeder is whether or not he killed Dr. Tiller and nothing else, he keeps assuring his own life sentence.

Good on ya', Scott. Thanks.

Roeder's attorneys have petitioned for a retrial, of course.

Nope. No, I don't think so but thanks for trying anyway, boys.

Roeder found guilty

"A Wichita jury found confessed killer Scott Roeder guilty of first-degree murder for killing Wichita abortion provider George Tiller."

"The jury also found Roeder guilty of two counts of aggravated assault against two witnesses."

"The state will be seeking a 'hard 50' sentence."

"Jurors deliberated for less than an hour Friday morning."

I'm glad that's over.



Link here:

http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2010/01/scott_roeder_guilty_of_first-d.php

The Roeder trial should be over

The Scott Roeder trial about whether or not he shot and killed (murdered) Dr. George Tiller should be, in effect, over as of yesterday .

Roeder (I refuse to refer to him as "Mr. Roeder. I cannot/will not give him that respect) confessed, under oath, on the witness stand in court.

To repeat for emphasis: Roeder is on trial to decide if he killed Dr. Tiller.

He confessed to it yesterday, under oath, on the witness stand, in court.

And get this--not only did Roeder admit to killing him but he also offered up that " he had been thinking about doing so since 1993."

The Judge made two very simple but wise and true statements regarding the case yesterday, too because, as the article in The Star pointed out "at the end of the day he ruled that he would not give jurors the option of considering a voluntary manslaughter conviction."

"Such a defense requires that a person must be stopping the imminent use of unlawful force," he said.

"There’s no imminence of danger on a Sunday morning in the back of a church,” Wilbert said, “let alone unlawful conduct." (This is as Sevesteen pointed out here, a couple days ago, in comments on this blog).

“In the state of Kansas, abortions are legal.”

It's over.

Roeder has declared himself guilty.

Fortunately, Judge Wilbert seemed to have had a change of mind on the case, too, when he announced, finally and fortunately, that the murder charge is the only option the jurors can decide after all, thank goodness.

I'm glad we've conclusively gotten that out of the way.

Sentencing should precede.

The only question now is whether the jury will return its verdict today or Monday, I believe.

Side note: I love the picture of Roeder on the front page of The Kansas City Star today. He looks as though he had a lobotomy and is trying to understand whatever someone is saying to him.

Further proof of premeditated first-degree murder

From The New York Times:

"In her opening statement, Ms. Foulston made clear that she intended to head off suggestions that Mr. Roeder’s acts were anything short of meticulously planned. Among the evidence she promised to show jurors: a brochure from Dr. Tiller’s Wichita church, dated nearly a year before the killing, and found at Mr. Roeder’s Kansas City home; a receipt for an ammunition purchase 11 days before the shooting; a Wichita motel registration bearing Mr. Roeder’s name from one week before the killing, a weekend when Dr. Tiller happened to miss church; and Mr. Roeder’s calendar — with the day of the shooting, May 31, marked with highlight."

So from this we can gather the following:

1) Roeder had been tracking Dr. Tiller for at least one year (brochure in his pocket)

2) purchase of ammunition 11 days before (I referred to this yesterday)

3) there is a good possibility the murderer was going to commit this same murder one week earlier but for Dr. Tiller missing church

4) the 1st degree murderer had clearly planned and dated when he wanted to commit his execution-style murder of Dr. Tiller in Dr. Tiller's church, by marking the date on his calendar.


My point in covering this?

There are some things--like unlimited corporate finance of political campaigns--that are so eggregious that I want to make sure they're explained, covered and communicated, so hopefully people know what's happening and so the right thing comes out of it.

As to the Supreme Court ruling last week on corporations and campaign financing, the wrong thing happened.

Hopefully the right and true, correct outcome will arise from Wichita and this Roeder, murder case and he will get a full life sentence, with no possibility of parole.

Fantastic, bizarre, freakish coincidence

Personally, I think it is absolutely a fantastic coincidence that the murderer Scott Roeder's trial for cold-bloodedly killing Dr. George Tiller--at the doctor's church on a Sunday morning, as Tiller was volunteering for the church and its worship service--is starting on the same day as the Roe v. Wade decision's 37th anniversary.

There's some terrific cosmic symbiosis going on there, somehow.